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#76 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 10:38 PM

True, they may help but would not give an absolute guarantee. In reality I dont know how many young women would go to martial arts lessons for a couple of years just because we asked them to.


And the fact that it will give increased confidence, keeps you physically active, and gives you a much better chance to fight off an attacker? I think people would go. I think a lot of the people attending would be those with a friend who got raped, and it hit home how vulnerable they could be.

#77 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:04 AM

Crime prevention is always a good idea. So called random rape is seldom random. Typically, the rapist knows the victim even if the victim doesn't know the rapist. Rape is not sexually driven. It is driven by a desire to control and dominate another.

I am not a martial art kind of guy, but I do like Krav Maga. If it was convenient to my home, I would, even at 55, study it, not for self defense but for physical fitness.

If it was my daughter, I would tell her to fight. In the U.S. for years police would tell women not to resist. The reason was to prevent further physical harm. But studies took place and it was discovered that women who resisted did better. When I teach a class about using firearms for defensive, I have a sheet of notebook paper and a ruler on a desk. I was involved years ago in a case where a women who was going to be the victim of a crime was able to escape by taking a sheet of paper, crumpling it and shoving it in the mouth of the assailant. She used the ruler to shove the paper into the mouth deep enough to cause the bad guy to begin to choke.

So I would tell my daughter to fight. And fight hard.

#78 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

Crime prevention is always a good idea. So called random rape is seldom random. Typically, the rapist knows the victim even if the victim doesn't know the rapist. Rape is not sexually driven. It is driven by a desire to control and dominate another.

I am not a martial art kind of guy, but I do like Krav Maga. If it was convenient to my home, I would, even at 55, study it, not for self defense but for physical fitness.

If it was my daughter, I would tell her to fight. In the U.S. for years police would tell women not to resist. The reason was to prevent further physical harm. But studies took place and it was discovered that women who resisted did better. When I teach a class about using firearms for defensive, I have a sheet of notebook paper and a ruler on a desk. I was involved years ago in a case where a women who was going to be the victim of a crime was able to escape by taking a sheet of paper, crumpling it and shoving it in the mouth of the assailant. She used the ruler to shove the paper into the mouth deep enough to cause the bad guy to begin to choke.

So I would tell my daughter to fight. And fight hard.


Sadly there is an attitude common in this country that "If I just comply, then maybe he will go easier on me". Not just for the situations where that attitude is sensible i.e Two people pointing guns at you and saying they only want money (in which case I think we would all comply), but in a lot of other situations. People who fight back and up getting injured more aren't directly "blamed" for it, but they get told they were wrong to try and fight back, and it would have been better not to.

I'd hate for my daughter to feel like she had no choice but to sit there and be raped, hoping that this would mean the rapist would decide to spare her life afterwards if he felt generous. What sort of experience must that feel like, being totally powerless to do something? I would much rather she felt empowered enough to take on her attacker.

Edited by Moxnil, 30 August 2012 - 02:32 PM.


#79 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:46 PM

Potential victims make second by second choices and weigh up the options as they see them at that time and, based on their personality, situation, perceived options etc. Whilst fighting back may be a good option in a lot of cases I would question why you would think this for every scenario.

#80 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 10:56 PM

I don't think fighting back is a good option in every scenario, as I already made quite clear in my last post where I said "Two people pointing guns at you and saying they only want money (in which case I think we would all comply)"

But I think there is definitely a mentality in this country that someone who fights back and gets injured more is somehow "at fault". People come in saying "if he had just done as they said he wouldn't have been injured" with absolutely NO evidence to back this up. Perhaps they would have injured him anyway, even if he had complied.

#81 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:18 AM

I was talking about the rape scenario, not being robbed.

#82 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:44 PM

So was I. What if the attacker cruelly decides to kill her afterwards, realizing that she is complying in the hopes of being let go?

What I can't seem to understand here is the attitude that it's always better to comply and hope the criminal is less nasty to you. I concede that self-defence classes wouldn't be a guarantee of victory against an attacker, but they would at least increase the chances of that. I think that "I'll take self-defence classes and try to defend myself against an attacker" is a more realistic rape survival plan than "I'll just do whatever he says and hope he lets me go afterwards".

#83 OFFLINE   cheesedoff

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

Moxnil, please point out where on earth any contributor to this thread has said or stated that it is ALWAYS better to comply. You on the other hand seem to think that to comply means death and you should always fight. Several contributors have put forward examples of when it would be better to either comply or not fight back. Read what people are writing and stop making things up, it's getting boring

Edited by cheesedoff, 31 August 2012 - 02:51 PM.


#84 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:19 PM

Moxnil, please point out where on earth any contributor to this thread has said or stated that it is ALWAYS better to comply. You on the other hand seem to think that to comply means death and you should always fight. Several contributors have put forward examples of when it would be better to either comply or not fight back. Read what people are writing and stop making things up, it's getting boring


I've not said this is the case, so it's you who is making things up at this point. Indeed, you can create any scenario which backs up your argument. Whether it would work in real life, is another matter. Maybe complying would be the best option in some cases, but even so, I'd hate for my daughter to feel she had to just to get out with her life. It just makes more logical sense for her to take preventative measures before, such as being prepared to fight back, or being armed.

When GeorgeH originally asked the question, I believe he expected a quick answer. However some officers couldn't even give an answer as to whether they'd want their own daughter to fight back, or just sit and be raped. I'm not sure if it occurred to them that the more training she had, and if she was carrying a weapon for self-defence, the harder it would be for the attacker to get her in a position where she had to comply or die.

Edited by Moxnil, 31 August 2012 - 03:32 PM.


#85 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:37 PM

I dont think anyone is arguing with your main point. Where I take exception is expecting a yes or no answer when it is far more complex than that. Criticising someone for having a broader view and trying to force a yes or no answer when it is not that easy comes across as a bit naive IMO. As I have said before a lot depends on the people, the personalities and the situation. Defending may be the best action but, I am not going to be critical of someone who decides that they feel it is in their best interest to comply for fear of further harm. As for women going to self defence classes, most people feel rape would not happen to them and, it is not enough of an incentive to attend on a regular basis when they prefer to go to their nail painting course :whistling:

#86 OFFLINE   cheesedoff

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:10 AM

I've not said this is the case, so it's you who is making things up at this point. Indeed, you can create any scenario which backs up your argument. Whether it would work in real life, is another matter. Maybe complying would be the best option in some cases, but even so, I'd hate for my daughter to feel she had to just to get out with her life. It just makes more logical sense for her to take preventative measures before, such as being prepared to fight back, or being armed.

When GeorgeH originally asked the question, I believe he expected a quick answer. However some officers couldn't even give an answer as to whether they'd want their own daughter to fight back, or just sit and be raped. I'm not sure if it occurred to them that the more training she had, and if she was carrying a weapon for self-defence, the harder it would be for the attacker to get her in a position where she had to comply or die.

And i quote "What I can't seem to understand here is the attitude that it's always better to comply......"
Your words not mine, it's getting boring.

#87 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:12 AM

And i quote "What I can't seem to understand here is the attitude that it's always better to comply......"
Your words not mine, it's getting boring.


It was a figure of speech, I thought that was obvious. As I've previously said, and which you seem to be ignoring, I would comply in certain situations I.e two attackers with a gun pointed at my head demanding my wallet.

I was disappointed that some people seemed to be using the line that "its much more complicated than a yes or no" to avoid answering tricky questions. Even when given a straightforward scenario with no variables and knowing fully what each option would result in.

#88 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:44 PM

I never expected a yes or no answer.

I also did not expect a "right or wrong" answer.

The original post presented a moral dilemma. But your laws made the dilemma less of a problem, so I made the problem more personal. The problem is that the responses were more generic.

#89 OFFLINE   Chris0984

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

Imagine the public outcry if somebody was out committing a firearms offence, a police officer was on scene, could have ended it, and chose not too - then more people were shot...... Just a thought.... The press would crucify that officer.

#90 OFFLINE   AndyG

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:26 PM

Chris0984, that is exactly why I asked the question. I wasn't expecting a clear answer as it is a very tough call with potentially dire consequences for the person making that decision, regardless of the choice. 






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