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Expandable/Rigid Batons.


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#1 OFFLINE   AlphaOscarOne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

A friend and i were leisurely discussing the use and deployment of batons within the line of duty :whistle2: . He believed that batons are rarely used by officers as C.S is more favourable in self defence than striking (he presumed ). However i believe strictly talking self defence, i.e restraining a person an officer wouldn't hesitate to draw his baton if he felt it was necessary.

I would love it if you anyone would could settle this debate, by firstly giving there personal experiences of using a baton, strictly in terms of restraint and/or self defence. Then Secondly stating which item there more inclined to use say if both were required, basically which one would you choose?

Many Thanks in anticipation! :biggrin:

#2 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:48 PM

I am also interested in what others will say .

I am not a cop. I am a US lawyer.

My guess is that officers will reach for the baton more often than the CS gas. I am not a big fan of CS gas because it does not work very well on four legged critters. CN and pepper spray are more effective in that regard. But unless you use a foaming delivery agent, you also run the risk of drift back/back splatter which would adversely affect the officer using the spray.

#3 OFFLINE   sykes

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:07 AM

depends on each situation but in my experience if its got that far that you need to use one of the two, then CS is the first option, but again it all depends on what you are faced with, tend not to fight with or try to arrest dogs, still what they do in the US is up to them

#4 OFFLINE   gripper

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:56 AM

I agree, I have never arrested a dog.
Can't get the handcuffs for them.

#5 OFFLINE   Traffic Rat

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:06 AM

My force changed from CS to Captor about 4 years ago,due it being more effective in terms of faster acting and less chance of cross contamination.
Sprays should be favoured due giving a better range whereas if you go for a baton strike you usually need to be in close at 3 to 4 feet away.
Fortunatly I have not had to spray anyone for several years mainly due to gassing someone on the hard shoulder of a motorway is not a good option as they can easily end up in a live lane so you learn to use your mouth more as your back up can be 20 miles away.


#6 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

I have sprayed about 10 people in my time and batoned about 2.
The use of a baton is, at least in my force, considered about as much force as you can use before things go really bad. The baton can easily lead to lasting injury which is bad for the person being hit but also bad for you as you get a giant microscope combing over what you did and why.
So spray is much lower on use of force than a baton and the use of spray for someone resisting or offering violence is much easier to justify and is more acceptable for an officer.
Basically when batons come out something pretty bad is going on

#7 OFFLINE   Headset 57

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:36 AM

Had 2 fighting on the ground and another 3 squaring up in a crowd of 11. Was on my own and put up a UA shout on the box!

The 2 on the ground were on top of each other and a captor shot would have only got 1 of them if at all. As i went to draw my baton i got shoved out of the way by another guy who smacked someone in the face about 6 feet from me.

I then went to my spray, which was on my side nearest to this guy and drew it with a short burst, as the guy turned round towards me with fists.

He got a shot in the face and ran off, and got locked up down the road.

The only time i hit someone with an asp was when they put a fellow SC in A&E for 2 weeks ( 2000 ), with 3 cracked ribs, and i broke the guys ankle, as he was on top of ny partner and i couldn't get a better strike in without hitting my partner.

Both above are simplified versions of each event and 1 baton & 1 spray use in 16 years ain't bad....


#8 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:11 PM

I agree, I have never arrested a dog.
Can't get the handcuffs for them.


Dogs are not the only problem: try bears, wolves, and coyotes in the mix. But seriously, in major northeastern US urban areas wild packs of dogs are a problem. In places like Alaska, possible bear or wolf attack is a real risk. (In Alaska wolves snack on family pets. No kidding.) In my city, Saint Clair Shores, Michigan, the police have been given orders to shoot coyotes on sight. (The urban landscape makes it an ideal environment for coyotes.) My mother bought a retirement home in the Florida panhandle about 30 years ago, and I remember going there and watching an alligator sun bathing himself on the front porch. (It gave me a second thought about taking a nap outdoors on the hammock.)

#9 OFFLINE   DoubleG

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:38 PM

Wolf attacks, coyote strikes, sunbathing alligators.....just another day on patrol for the British bobby.

#10 OFFLINE   The_Domino

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

I have never used my baton

I have never used my CS

I have used my Taser

#11 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:46 AM

Wolf attacks, coyote strikes, sunbathing alligators.....just another day on patrol for the British bobby.


I guess in London you may have some overweight cats. (So many cats, so few recipes.)

But seriously, I am amazed that the comments favor CS gas. I would never have guessed.

#12 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:54 AM

"But seriously, I am amazed that the comments favor CS gas. I would never have guessed."

Everything we do now is about damage mitigation. Spray can be very effective, taking the fight out of someone almost immediately and leaving no lasting damage. It is an option we are required to consider before doing anything that could cause injury. You need more justification to baton someone than to spray. If you can justify it then thats fine. But in my experience you need your baton less than you need your spray.

#13 OFFLINE   gripper

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

Wolf attacks, coyote strikes, sunbathing alligators.....just another day on patrol for the British bobby.

It's the squirrel gangs, I fear the most.


#14 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:59 AM

It's the squirrel gangs, I fear the most.


Be serious please lol.

Not being an officer I couldn't say for sure, but I've always thought that if I was forced to pick between a baton and spray, I'd go for the spray.

Edited by Moxnil, 10 October 2012 - 10:00 AM.


#15 OFFLINE   gripper

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:31 PM

CS doesn't work on dogs.

Edited by gripper, 10 October 2012 - 01:32 PM.


#16 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

I didn't mention dogs?

#17 OFFLINE   gripper

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:37 PM

depends on each situation but in my experience if its got that far that you need to use one of the two, then CS is the first option, but again it all depends on what you are faced with, tend not to fight with or try to arrest dogs, still what they do in the US is up to them

You havn't read the thread.

#18 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:48 PM

I am interested in what front line officers have to say. In the US there pepper spray is by far the most common defensive weapon carried by police and civilian alike. Almost no one uses CS gas for personal defense. Even for crowd control, pepper spray is becoming predominate. And it is true, that critter control is an issue in the US which is not a concern in the UK. Wild dogs, cougers, bears, wolves, et cetera are very real here. About 5 years ago, I was in northern Michigan fishing, and I heard a radio report of a moose attacking a small compact car. Deer/auto accidents are very common and a real danger.

In the US most police officers are more likely to Taser someone than use a chemical agent. I find it interesting that the officers posting on this thread, prefer CS gas over a baton. In the US it is common that when pepper spray is used, and after the subject is subdued, that emergency medical personnel is called out to neutralize the continued effects of the spray. That makes the police run more time consuming and increases the paperwork and personnel costs.

#19 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:38 AM

I carry pava spray, which is very good at what it does. There is no antidote other than time or possibly milk, but I have never tried it.
So there is no need to get them checked out by medics. Custody will send someone to hospital at the drop of a hat with you guarding them, for about 4 hours on average. So it is of great benifit to get someone arrested without injuring them in any way. If they want to fight its akways better to incapacitate them without touching.

I would consider taser but as I don't have one and probably won't for years I don't get that option, though I have seen the aiming alone to stop a fight instantly

#20 OFFLINE   DoubleG

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:17 AM

In my opinion SimonT's previous comment summed it up in the argument cs v baton. More likely to cause injury with baton and everyone loves to sue the old bill or put a complaint in. But cs don't always work and I don't hesitate if I feel the situation (public order) requires a show of force, namely batons. But one on one cs would probably come out first. I don't have taser....yet. Not long though Mrs May, and then it will be even easier to only need one officer in a car with a taser rather than his/her trusted colleague. If only tasers could patrol alone.

#21 OFFLINE   Red_Panda

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:19 AM

Cs without a doubt for me. Used it once against a cage fighter, who I most definitely wouldn't have bested! Worked immediately and turned him into a crying three year old. Cuffs on, strap up like a turkey; job done. Fairly confident my baton is only any use if someone else is getting attacked and not me. What I'd give for a tazer up north...

#22 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:00 AM

I carry pava spray, which is very good at what it does.


Pava is a synthetic pepper spray. For personal defensive use, pepper spray is extremely popular in the U.S. For more so than CS or CN gas. The reson medical personel is called for in the US is becaue they carry bottles of water that is used to wash out some of the residue from the face . It also gives temporary relief.

#23 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:11 AM

We just open a window for them if feeling nice

#24 OFFLINE   GeorgeH

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:16 PM

If they tried to do that in the US, the punks would try to escape.

#25 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:19 PM

Open front window only. Or heating if your feeling irritated




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