Jump to content

  •  

Photo

Would you arrest someone for walking down the road with a Leatherman?


Best Answer *Matt*, 04 December 2012 - 11:40 PM

Look, Moxnil, there comes a point where you have to have some social responsibility.  Knife crime is a problem, and people get stabbed and die, and the problem is growing.  We are all aware of this.

 

Legislation is there to try to stop knives being on our streets at all, and our job as officers is to uphold that.  It is unavoidable that it means some people who are responsible enough to carry a knife 'just in case' who would never hurt or threaten anyone, won't be allowed to.  It is no different than to say I as an experienced 40 year old driver in a quality car may well be safe driving at 90 miles an hour on the motorway and safer than a new driver in a dodgy car who has only been driving a week.  However, because a line has to be drawn somewhere in the wider interests of peoples' safety, it is not OK for me to ignore the law on the basis that I believe, or know, I am no threat.  That is how the law works - a general legislation is there that is not tailored to the individual, but is a mean, a 'best fit as we can manage' to achieve the purpose, in this case, to keep knives and knife crime as low as possible.  

 

I am perfectly willing on this forum to take you on your word and accept you in all likelihood wouldn't use the knife criminally.  However, on the street I simply don't have that luxury - You may have no previous and be about to walk into the argument of your life.  You could be going to stab someone who just slept with your wife.  I don't know, and while I might have a general feeling one way or the other, that knife is coming off of you.  It's not a power trip, an ego thing or any kind of complex, its a simple law that we all have to follow.  

 

And that's it - the law applies to everyone, and all laws will not be fair for all people all the time.  But you can't pick and choose this one any more than any other.

 

If what you want to say here is 'it's annoying that because of a load of knife wielding idiots I can't do my boy scout thing', then you are right.  It's the same for all of us.  I can't take my baton and cs home 'just in case' I see a crime on the journey, even though I know I could be trusted with only using it lawfully in the execution of my duty.  That's just how it is, and flogging this poor pony that kicked the bucket somewhere on page 4 starts to become a load of trolling nonsense, because the concept is actually very straightforward, and underpins pretty much all the legislation there is.  

 
Go to the full post


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
245 replies to this topic

#226 OFFLINE   Moxnil

Moxnil

    UKPOLICEONLINE Regular

  • Banned
  • 868 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:13 AM

 

Look, Moxnil, there comes a point where you have to have some social responsibility.  Knife crime is a problem, and people get stabbed and die, and the problem is growing.  We are all aware of this.

 

I consider it my social responsibility to carry one. When a car overturned in the states and an ordinary MOP came forward with a knife to cut the seatbelt, the off duty fireman later claimed was vital in rescuing the passengers. If you want to argue with the "oh that's so unlikely to happen", just keep in mind that the entire argument against carrying knives is based on a just as unlikely situation - that the person with a knife will use it as a weapon. 

 

Can anyone here who opposes knives tell me that the man in that situation shouldn't have carried one? 

 

Legislation is to try and stop knives being used as weapons. It is not there to stop them being used as knives. At the end of the day, I'm not inconveniencing myself to satisfy people who have an irrational fear. A line has to be drawn somewhere I agree, but not as far down as what you are suggesting.

 

I am perfectly willing on this forum to take you on your word and accept you in all likelihood wouldn't use the knife criminally.  However, on the street I simply don't have that luxury - You may have no previous and be about to walk into the argument of your life.  You could be going to stab someone who just slept with your wife.  I don't know, and while I might have a general feeling one way or the other, that knife is coming off of you.  It's not a power trip, an ego thing or any kind of complex, its a simple law that we all have to follow.  

 

But such examples are so unlikely to happen that you have to wonder is it really worth considering them. I have had a couple of heated arguments when I had my knife on me, and no one got stabbed. So what are you worried about? 

 

If what you want to say here is 'it's annoying that because of a load of knife wielding idiots I can't do my boy scout thing', then you are right.  It's the same for all of us.  I can't take my baton and cs home 'just in case' I see a crime on the journey, even though I know I could be trusted with only using it lawfully in the execution of my duty.  That's just how it is, and flogging this poor pony that kicked the bucket somewhere on page 4 starts to become a load of trolling nonsense, because the concept is actually very straightforward, and underpins pretty much all the legislation there is.  

 

 

It's not a "boy scout thing", it's a way of life. I agree with you about your baton and spray, you shouldn't have to suffer because your bosses are paranoid. Can't let him take his baton and spray home, it's not like he's a trained officer or anything  :whistling:

 

The idontcarryaknife website has good intentions. But they give rather nonsensical advice - walk instead of running away when confronted with a knife. They act like they have this divine right to tell people what to do, but at the same time I know they would refuse to accept responsibility if their advice landed someone in hot water. They try to convey knife carriers as unstable and violent. However they are right about one thing. Try taking a £40 knife from me, and I WILL escalate things.


Edited by Moxnil, 05 December 2012 - 08:28 AM.


#227 OFFLINE   *Matt*

*Matt*

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 321 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:22 AM

Respectfully, I think you are wilfully ignoring the point of my post, so I am afraid past there I cannot help you.  I also recommend NOT 'escalating things' when you have been identified as carrying a knife in a public place and an officer goes to lawfully take it from you, I've seen such situations and it never ends well for the knife carrier.

 

My final word on this, then are that if you want to be ready to cut belts or ligatures, or some other possible or unlikely hero scenario you envisage, then non stabbable safety belt and ligature cutters are available, and you are perfectly entitled to carry them.  I can't speak for my colleagues, but the great irony of this is that your continued argument in the face of professional advice, and your complete lack of willingness to understand any compromise steadily makes you less and less someone I would trust to carry a knife.  Zeal in these matters should be secondary to sense.

 

You keep insisting you pass 'the attitude test, but unfortunately, reviewing the last 12 pages, actually you don't at all.  

 


#228 OFFLINE   Moxnil

Moxnil

    UKPOLICEONLINE Regular

  • Banned
  • 868 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:30 AM

 

Respectfully, I think you are wilfully ignoring the point of my post, so I am afraid past there I cannot help you.  I also recommend NOT 'escalating things' when you have been identified as carrying a knife in a public place and an officer goes to lawfully take it from you, I've seen such situations and it never ends well for the knife carrier.

 

My final word on this, then are that if you want to be ready to cut belts or ligatures, or some other possible or unlikely hero scenario you envisage, then non stabbable safety belt and ligature cutters are available, and you are perfectly entitled to carry them.  I can't speak for my colleagues, but the great irony of this is that your continued argument in the face of professional advice, and your complete lack of willingness to understand any compromise steadily makes you less and less someone I would trust to carry a knife.  Zeal in these matters should be secondary to sense.

 

You keep insisting you pass 'the attitude test, but unfortunately, reviewing the last 12 pages, actually you don't at all.  

 

 

 

Ok I think we got some wires crossed here. I'm saying I would escalate things if some random guy with no authority tried taking it. If it's an officer who is arresting me, then of course I'm not going to fight it, I don't fancy finding out what a Taser feels like  :biggrin:

 

Whether or not I pass the attitude test for you depends on if you believe that disagreeing with you = fail. I may disagree with the officers and MOP's who oppose my argument here, but I have always remained polite, open minded, and have answered any questions to the best of my ability. I would extend this courtesy to any officer who stopped me. And while that might not stop me getting arrested, I think the officer would admit that I had passed the attitude test due to my unwavering politeness. 

 

If you feel that simply  disagreeing with people over knife legislation makes me the sort of person you wouldn't trust with a knife, that's up to you. This highlights precisely the level of abuse that a law open to interpretation can provide. I have been nothing but polite throughout, yet simply disagreeing with you makes me the sort of person you "wouldn't trust" to carry one. With that definition, you will never find anyone who carries a knife that you would trust to carry one, because they are all in disagreement with you simply for having one with them.

 

I am open to compromise, I think I have clearly demonstrated that. For instance, during the "zero tolerance" anti-knife campaigns, I take no chances and only carry a non locking folder. Not because I want to carry that particular knife, but because I know that any chance of discretion is out the window (even if the particular officer himself agrees with me, he will have been told no exceptions). I'm not expecting an officer to risk their job for me, so I make the sensible choice in swapping down to a knife that there is absolutely no ambiguity over - It's legal unless you can prove it's an off-wep.


Edited by Moxnil, 05 December 2012 - 09:37 AM.


#229 OFFLINE   Bart

Bart

    UKPO Staff

  • Moderators
  • 6,288 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

Look moxnil, its all getting a little monotonous now, yes we know, you've got an illegal knife, yes we know you like carrying it, we're not bothered that you've got no regard for the law by continuing to want to carry a knowingly illegal knife. When, and its inevitable that it will be when, you're stopped and the knife is confiscated, don't come on here twining that its been taken as you'll get an emphatic "I told you so!" end of discussion in my eyes. :wink:

#230 OFFLINE   Moxnil

Moxnil

    UKPOLICEONLINE Regular

  • Banned
  • 868 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:51 AM

Look moxnil, its all getting a little monotonous now, yes we know, you've got an illegal knife, yes we know you like carrying it, we're not bothered that you've got no regard for the law by continuing to want to carry a knowingly illegal knife. When, and its inevitable that it will be when, you're stopped and the knife is confiscated, don't come on here twining that its been taken as you'll get an emphatic "I told you so!" end of discussion in my eyes. :wink:

 

Allow me to correct the several inaccuracies I've spotted here. I sometimes carry a lock knife with what I deem to be a reasonable excuse. I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of having no regard for the law when in actual fact I  do have great regard for it.  If a particularly pedantic officer stops me and takes me to court, will a judge accept the excuse? Maybe, and maybe not. I don't know. But it's so unlikely to ever actually happen that I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it. 

 

Until someone can say that it would have been better for everyone if the man in this story had not carried a knife, I will continue to dismiss the usual anti-knife arguments. If you want to say that this is so unlikely to happen, I agree. But you are also using an unlikely scenario to justify an anti-knife stance. You can't dismiss this example because of how unlikely it is and then proceed to do exactly the same by goin "Oh but someone might use it as a weapon". Both these for and against arguments are unlikely.

 

Are the people who want knives off the streets prepared to accept full liability for situations where a knife could have saved lives? 



#231 OFFLINE   Fedster

Fedster

    -

  • Banned
  • 2,198 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

Moxnill you are flogging a dead horse, you just seemed to be arguing the toss for the sake of it, this going round and round and round and round circles business is making me dizzy.



#232 OFFLINE   Moxnil

Moxnil

    UKPOLICEONLINE Regular

  • Banned
  • 868 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:33 AM

Moxnill you are flogging a dead horse, you just seemed to be arguing the toss for the sake of it, this going round and round and round and round circles business is making me dizzy.

 

I'll move on to a new point I've been interested in asking then.

 

Would the people who want knives off the streets accept full liability for situations where the presence of a knife could have saved lives?



#233 OFFLINE   *Matt*

*Matt*

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 321 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

I generally do not think forcing thread closure is a good thing, but the last question is utter nonsense, and evidence of trolling in my view.  I agree with Bart, this has become daft.

 


#234 OFFLINE   Moxnil

Moxnil

    UKPOLICEONLINE Regular

  • Banned
  • 868 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:12 PM

 

I generally do not think forcing thread closure is a good thing, but the last question is utter nonsense, and evidence of trolling in my view.  I agree with Bart, this has become daft.

 

 

 

I'm sorry if you feel that way, but it is a serious question. I would prefer it remained open, there are still some things to discuss. Some people in this thread have asked me why I carry a knife. For the most part, it is because it's a handy tool to have for everyday things. But on the odd occasion, it can save lives as shown in that link. If there had been a law against knives in that place, that person would have probably died. So if you support a law that can put people at risk, my question is would you be prepared to accept liability if it does go wrong?

 

Fair enough, I'm not sure that there is anyone here that actually wants ALL knives off the street. I think broadly speaking the consensus is that the S139 exemption should stay.

 

Having said that, although such a rescue would be possible with a non locking knife, you've got to consider the timing. Thanks to the thumb stud on my lock knives, I can open them up as quick as if they were flick knives. This would be of great assistance in times when every second counts. In those situations, I wouldn't want to have to fidget about getting my nail into the groove of a SAK and pulling it out.


Edited by Moxnil, 05 December 2012 - 12:17 PM.


#235 OFFLINE   Bart

Bart

    UKPO Staff

  • Moderators
  • 6,288 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:42 PM

Sect 139 is an English/Welsh law - not Scottish. Interesting to read from the CPS website:-

"The defendant does not
discharge the burden of
showing "good reason" just
by providing an
explanation that is not
contradicted by the
prosecution evidence:
Where
details of a defence are
given in interview or in a
defence statement, the
CPS should consider
whether evidence is
available to rebut the
defence and should liaise
with police if additional
enquiries or evidence are
necessary. Any defence
should be tested by robust
cross examination."

So playing the "nice attitude" card wont get you anywhere, you'll still get the 3rd degree.

#236 OFFLINE   Moxnil

Moxnil

    UKPOLICEONLINE Regular

  • Banned
  • 868 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:02 PM

Sect 139 is an English/Welsh law - not Scottish. Interesting to read from the CPS website:-

"The defendant does not
discharge the burden of
showing "good reason" just
by providing an
explanation that is not
contradicted by the
prosecution evidence:
Where
details of a defence are
given in interview or in a
defence statement, the
CPS should consider
whether evidence is
available to rebut the
defence and should liaise
with police if additional
enquiries or evidence are
necessary. Any defence
should be tested by robust
cross examination."

So playing the "nice attitude" card wont get you anywhere, you'll still get the 3rd degree.

 

 

When I mention S139 I'm using it to refer to the "legal" knives, i.e those that can be carried for no reason whatsoever. Quite often, whether or not the person passes what police call the attitude test is considered. Take SimonT's example. If he found me with a lock knife, and confirmed I didn't have previous and am not wanted for stabbings, he'd let me on my way. If instead of being polite, I was obnoxious and rude to him the entire time, I think my chances of going on my way would be significantly reduced.

 

I could carry a seatbelt cutter, a window breaker, but it's not really practical to carry each individual tool about. If I can get both of them in something like this that's better.

 

If a death occurred due to the absence of such a lock knife or rescue tool, would the people in favour of anti-knife legislation accept full liability? I think that's a good question to ask to people. If you are in favour of legislation that can put people at risk, I think you should be prepared to talk about this, justify whether you believe it's an acceptable risk. For example, would you tell the person in that link that their rescuer shouldn't have had his knife with him that day?


Edited by Moxnil, 05 December 2012 - 01:10 PM.


#237 OFFLINE   Bart

Bart

    UKPO Staff

  • Moderators
  • 6,288 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:08 PM

I'm not going to contribute any further to the longevity of this topic, in the words of Dragons Den - "Ahm Oot!"

#238 OFFLINE   *Matt*

*Matt*

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 321 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:11 PM

and Ahm Oot!  

 

 


#239 OFFLINE   earthman

earthman

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 206 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:44 PM

You may have no previous and be about to walk into the argument of your life.  You could be going to stab someone who just slept with your wife.  I don't know, and while I might have a general feeling one way or the other, that knife is coming off of you.  

 

 

Couldn't that also be said for all workmen, chefs etc who would be carrying lock knives legally, despite them having a 'good reason', who's to say that they won't use them later that day to inflict injury? At the end of the day, even a non locking sub 3" knife could be lethal yet you can't take them under the same thinking, unless other sinister circumstances are proven/come to light obviously. 

 

To me that really doesn't make sense.

 

In general I appreciate that the Police have a tough job to do and most likely meet the worst members of society most of the time, recognizing  who is/isn't a decent person with such tool(s) is going to be challenging, I guess it's far easier and more pleasing to the top brass to be confiscating/arresting all concerned.

 

A few years ago now, at a Police event I did ask about a dozen different ranking Officers about my multi tool, about half of them said "You may have a problem with that", referring to the locking aspect of the blade, I'd hazard a guess that even more would know now about the non locking/locking rule so Moxnil, I'd say that you maybe underestimating that figure no matter where you live.

 

Moxnil, have you considered replacing your knife with the one I posted? (2nd picture) or maybe any in the link below?

OK, they will never be as safe to use as a lock knife but they do offer some sort of finger protection over a normal Swiss army type knife. Despite them looking a bit 'tacticool' can we all agree that they are legal to carry without 'good reason' ?......Wouldn't want a new comer reading this then finding themselves in trouble.

 

http://www.heinnie.c...es/c-1-641-765/



#240 OFFLINE   Sectioned Detection

Sectioned Detection

    UKPOLICEONLINE Master

  • Senior Resident Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,629 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:03 PM

Buy a small non-locking knife and I'll accept responsibility if you come across a rescue situation and the blade closes and cuts your finger.

Or buy a ResQme keyring as it cuts belts and breaks glass.

#241 OFFLINE   earthman

earthman

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 206 posts

Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

Buy a small non-locking knife and I'll accept responsibility if you come across a rescue situation and the blade closes and cuts your finger.


Any of those knives in my link ok by you?

#242 OFFLINE   earthman

earthman

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 206 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

Hmm, I guess that an Officer of the law can't confirm or be seen to condone any particular knife that would be OK to carry then??



#243 OFFLINE   Fritz@Customs

Fritz@Customs

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 320 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

Hmm, I guess that an Officer of the law can't confirm or be seen to condone any particular knife that would be OK to carry then??

 

I imagine they have the same problem I would have.

 

If I physically examine the knife, I can make a decision about whether it S139-compliant, falls to be prohibited or requires a reasonable excuse and I'll happily let you proceed if it's OK.

 

But, based on a picture, I wouldn't want to commit in case there is something I cannot see or operate on the knife in question.



#244 OFFLINE   earthman

earthman

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 206 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:52 PM

 

I imagine they have the same problem I would have.

 

If I physically examine the knife, I can make a decision about whether it S139-compliant, falls to be prohibited or requires a reasonable excuse and I'll happily let you proceed if it's OK.

 

But, based on a picture, I wouldn't want to commit in case there is something I cannot see or operate on the knife in question.

 

That's fine and I can understand that I guess but what is the plain old citizen meant to do? This store is well respected/reputable so the fact that they have put them in the 'UK legal' section doesn't count for much??



#245 OFFLINE   Sectioned Detection

Sectioned Detection

    UKPOLICEONLINE Master

  • Senior Resident Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,629 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

I'd prefer something with a screwdriver but sure if they're your thing. They're legal so no problem.

#246 OFFLINE   earthman

earthman

    UKPOLICEONLINE Full Member

  • Resident Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 206 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:36 PM

I must admit, I do prefer multi tools in general, I tend to use the screw drivers and pliers a fair bit.
It's still nice to carry a good quality knife too, for those times when the overall bulk of the tool/handles become uncomfortable/awkward.




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users