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Great police lies.


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#1 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:54 AM

In a way this is a negative thread but also slightly positive, well maybe.

A few months ago i attended an elderly couple who were having some serious problems with a neighbour, a young man placed next to them by the council, with drug, alcohol, violence and general unpleasant person issues. He had been making their lives a misery and the council had done nothing about it and couldn't move the couple who were both in their 80's and barely sleeping.

I attended and took a full report, provided them with the reassurance contact details of the appropriate agencies and what we would do next.
We are constantly having presentations and powerpoints of how we need to deliver our service to people and what service they should expect from us at the sharp end. I delivered this all like a boss (if i say so myself) and set about alerting all the appropriate agencies and departments about the situation so we could deliver our multi-agency promise of action.

2 months later they called in with the same problems about the same person. Nothing has been done, not a single thing and every one of my assurances, which i am required to give were left unfulfilled. I didnt feel i could go back to their address and go through the same flim flam again, selling them a vision of action which we have no resources or will to deliver.

Of course if i did tell them the truth and reality it would not only be cruel but i could get into trouble for not delivering our promise of telling them all this nonsense.

I think part of the reason the public have issues with the police is we lie constantly to them about what we can do and how we can do it when basically we cant and wont do so very much.

#2 OFFLINE   morek54

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:18 AM

Yes, in many respects we compound their unrealistic expectations by making promises that we are reliant on others to deliver. We should be more honest with people rather than giving them false hope. The whole multi-agency ethos is a flawed concept anyway, which in most instances is severely one-sided. It's about what others can get from us, how they can pass the buck onto the Police, rather than a genuine joint working partnership. When they need the Police, they are very quick to remind us of our agreed responsibilities in terms of multi-agency working, but are painfully slow and unresponsive - almost pathetic - when the Police call upon them. As ever though, when the Police are the first point of contact, it's usually us who get the blame when they are let down by the rest of the system. I'm not saying we always get it right, genuine human failings dictate otherwise, but often we do as much as we can but that goes unrecognised because sometimes expectations are unduly dashed. I cringe personally when I hear the term multi-agency approach, it's just one of those trendy expressions favoured by the bosses that the job loves to throw into the mix when demonstrating it's inclusiveness of alternative thinking and ideas; but which in reality doesn't really mean anything. In other words, Police gobbledygook.

#3 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:53 AM

I'll place a fiver on you being told to call dp's "customers" by 2015.

#4 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:43 AM

Here we go again about the one sided nature of multi agency working (only from your perspective I might add). Reading the above I personally would not make promises that another organisation has to deliver on. I use other words like 'will be in contact with' and 'are responsible for' etc. That way I have not lied.

#5 OFFLINE   Frank Drebin

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

Thing is though, it is one sided.

We moan (a lot) about 'partner' agencies palming their work off on the police, because it happens a lot. When do these partner agencies end up doing our police work for us?. Rarely, if ever, I'd suggest.

#6 OFFLINE   znra251

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:15 PM

Thing is though, it is one sided.

We moan (a lot) about 'partner' agencies palming their work off on the police, because it happens a lot. When do these partner agencies end up doing our police work for us?. Rarely, if ever, I'd suggest.

Thing is though, it is one sided.

We moan (a lot) about 'partner' agencies palming their work off on the police, because it happens a lot. When do these partner agencies end up doing our police work for us?. Rarely, if ever, I'd suggest.


Nonsense, last week while trying to get the mental health nurses at the mental health ward to take responsibity for a calm and non violent s136 I clearly remember seeing two mental health nurses going to a burglary in progress and definately saw social services dealing with a pub fight while we did a call on to assess a child's welfare at 5pm because although they knew it needed doing at 2pm they waited till 430pm to try.

#7 OFFLINE   cheesedoff

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:35 AM

I'll place a fiver on you being told to call dp's "customers" by 2015.


Been doing just that (well, the management) for years already.

Here we go again about the one sided nature of multi agency working (only from your perspective I might add). Reading the above I personally would not make promises that another organisation has to deliver on. I use other words like 'will be in contact with' and 'are responsible for' etc. That way I have not lied.

I both agree and disagree with this post.
Multi agency approaches are massively one sided, however, you are right, don't lie to the public. Tell them what you can and cannot do. It's not cruel it's the right thing to do. Tell them what you will do and who you will ask to assist you (other agencies) but tell them you cannot guarantee that the other agencies will do what is asked of them.
If it all goes pear shaped and you have to go back, tell the complainant you fulfilled your role and give them the details of the departments who did not. Contact these departments / agencies yourself and report their inaction up the chain.

#8 OFFLINE   Moxnil

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

Been doing just that (well, the management) for years already.


See I think you're just joking there, but there's a nagging part of me that's wondering lol. The way I see it, talks of "how to deliver on..." etc is the sort of thing I'd associate with customer service talking about what they can do to make customers feel welcome and return etc.

#9 OFFLINE   cheesedoff

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

See I think you're just joking there, but there's a nagging part of me that's wondering lol. The way I see it, talks of "how to deliver on..." etc is the sort of thing I'd associate with customer service talking about what they can do to make customers feel welcome and return etc.

I'm a Police Officer, not a comedian. No joke.

#10 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:42 PM

I sent another file in last week and checked its progress today. Another priority crime with multi agency involvement. An all singing and dancing support and action type response. The result, its been filed. No further support, no sign of all the things im required to tell the person we will do to help them. The person even mentioned being scared about ending up like some of the victims of long term asb and i droned on about our new focused approach to try and stop it happening ever again. 

 

But i delivered everything i have been asked to, in the way i have been asked do and i am not able to do the things i promised on my own. Thats all for special units dedicated to delivering what i have promised and as far as i can tell, not doing that at all. 

 

Ho hum, i wonder what promises i will get to make tomorrow. 



#11 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:25 PM

Thing is though, it is one sided.

We moan (a lot) about 'partner' agencies palming their work off on the police, because it happens a lot. When do these partner agencies end up doing our police work for us?. Rarely, if ever, I'd suggest.

 

What work would you like the NHS to do for you (excluding the usual moans about mental health services that is?) As for it being one sided the police regularly pass work onto other agencies to follow up and take responsibility for so I cant see how it is one sided. The mistake I think a lot of Police Officers are making on this site is mixing up dealing with absconders and not recognising the work handed over by the police to partner agencies which, once passed over the police may then have no further involvement in - unless they abscond of course!!!



#12 OFFLINE   stewie_griffin

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

Why do police officers think they're solely responsible for all the problems in the world? This situation outlined by the OP is sad, but it's just that: sad. If it's the job of the police to deal with people who are merely 'unpleasant', then can there ever be any areas of human existence that are not the responsibility of the police?

 

Quotes I use when asked to deal with insoluble problems:

'We're only the police.'

'We can't make people get along.'

'We can't turn nasty people into nice people.'

 

On a personal level, when you start taking responsibility for peoples lives, you will get depressed and slowly go insane.



#13 OFFLINE   Sectioned Detection

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

 
What work would you like the NHS to do for you (excluding the usual moans about mental health services that is?) As for it being one sided the police regularly pass work onto other agencies to follow up and take responsibility for so I cant see how it is one sided. The mistake I think a lot of Police Officers are making on this site is mixing up dealing with absconders and not recognising the work handed over by the police to partner agencies which, once passed over the police may then have no further involvement in - unless they abscond of course!!!

How about ambulances calling for police when they've not enough staff? Besides which there are more 'partner agency's' than just the NHS. Social services, CPS, Schools, witness care.......

Oh and you seem to have forgotten. If its not crime related its not our job!

Edited by Sectioned Detection, 05 December 2012 - 12:40 PM.


#14 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:43 PM

Picking hairs probably but, it doesnt have to be crime related eg facilitating protest is a police role. I used the NHS as that is what I know but, the point I was making is that the police pass work over to other agencies so it is not all one way traffic.



#15 OFFLINE   Saxondale

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:02 PM

Multi agency dealings are just like us Police.  Some individuals or shifts are jack and others go that extra mile.

 

What I don't like, and this fits with the OP's account, is that we're constantly 'trained' or told to make sure the reassurance includes the 'ideal multi agency solution' and not to blame poor responses on 'lack of resources.'

 

My approach is always truthful - i will paint the ideal picture of how the system should work, but then tell them if they've not heard anything within a few weeks to contact the **insert relevant agency here** directly and if they're not happy with the response to write to their MP.  



#16 OFFLINE   Anna32

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

Why do police officers think they're solely responsible for all the problems in the world? This situation outlined by the OP is sad, but it's just that: sad. If it's the job of the police to deal with people who are merely 'unpleasant', then can there ever be any areas of human existence that are not the responsibility of the police?

 

Quotes I use when asked to deal with insoluble problems:

'We're only the police.'

'We can't make people get along.'

'We can't turn nasty people into nice people.'

 

On a personal level, when you start taking responsibility for peoples lives, you will get depressed and slowly go insane.

 

 

The police shouldn't be, but they are. Government and management have turned police into an agency that claims to solve everyone's problems, and trained the public to expect this and to get either disappointed or aggrieved when it does not and cannot happen. Puncturing the current setup might be the one bright side of all the cutbacks, because it's heading for an implosion anyway.


Edited by Anna32, 05 December 2012 - 06:45 PM.


#17 OFFLINE   Frank Drebin

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

 

What work would you like the NHS to do for you (excluding the usual moans about mental health services that is?) As for it being one sided the police regularly pass work onto other agencies to follow up and take responsibility for so I cant see how it is one sided. The mistake I think a lot of Police Officers are making on this site is mixing up dealing with absconders and not recognising the work handed over by the police to partner agencies which, once passed over the police may then have no further involvement in - unless they abscond of course!!!

 

What work would I like the NHS to do fo us?,..... Umm,.. Their own would be a good starting point I guess.

 

Seriously though, where have I said I'd like the NHS to do our work for us?. Also, can you show any examples of police passing our workload to the NHS, or any other 'partner' agency for that matter.

 

When you say police regularly pass work onto other agencies to follow up, is this actual police work being passed on?. I'd suggest more likely that it's something that would be the remit of said other agency in the first place, and it gets passed on as it was never a police matter to begin with.



#18 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:34 PM

The work passed on would not be 'police' work in fairness. Examples I was thinking about would be drug and rehab work, probation, child protection issues etc etc.  I see it more as a continuum in that partner agencies may be involved in work which may lead to crime reduction. As budgets and staffing gets tighter there is a real danger that the infighting could become more acrimonious as the public sector gets squeezed more tightly - probably a case for keeping the lines of communication more open to avoid this happening?

 

http://www.suffolk.p...dquestions.aspx


Edited by meditate, 05 December 2012 - 11:35 PM.


#19 OFFLINE   ammo

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

 

What work would you like the NHS to do for you (excluding the usual moans about mental health services that is?) As for it being one sided the police regularly pass work onto other agencies to follow up and take responsibility for so I cant see how it is one sided. The mistake I think a lot of Police Officers are making on this site is mixing up dealing with absconders and not recognising the work handed over by the police to partner agencies which, once passed over the police may then have no further involvement in - unless they abscond of course!!!

 

The police regularly pass on work to the other agencies because we are sent to the calls first, and they are the jobs that have naff all to do with the police. What does a depressed person who has overdosed have to do with the police, assuming they haven't kicked off. That is routinely passed through to us by ambo control and so we go along. We get sent to do safe and well checks by every agency under the sun, especially social services. The mental health one is the biggest annoyance because of how frustrating drawn out it is and how no one seems to turn out at the same time - I know you said excluding that meditate mate but I couldn't help it.

 

You mention faciliating protest as a police role that isn't crime related but you won't see the police calling up the fire brigade and saying, can you come down and give a chuck with this edl protest, as others have mentioned it normally is non police matters that are passed on because they were nothing to do with us in the first place.



#20 OFFLINE   morek54

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:51 PM

Picking hairs probably but, it doesnt have to be crime related eg facilitating protest is a police role. 

Facilitating protest, as you put it, is not and has never been a core Police role.  The word "facilitate" means to make something easier to do - and by that virtue suggests some degree of affinity to the cause, which Police simply cannot have.  Whenever there is a significant Police presence at a protest, whatever form that may take, it is primarily to prevent disorder and maintain public safety.  A fundamental Policing role.  The basis, for example, of Policing a EDL march is not to make it easier for them to protest but rather to prevent opposing groups who find their views objectionable from clashing with them.  Otherwise, it'd be a mass brawl. The professional protester tends to arrogantly believe the Police exist to facilitate their right to protest about whatever cause it is that they have adopted this week, yet they tend to miss the point entirely.  People have a right to protest peacefully - and the Police should allow this in so much as they should not interfere with peaceful protest where there are no offences or where, for example, there is no breach of peace or such a breach is unlikely.  This should not be confused with why the Police are there!  Sorry to disappoint you but a Police presence at any protest will be for the purpose of Policing that protest not facilitating it.  The Police are there to prevent crime and disorder and to protect life and property.  And that about sums it up, or should.


Edited by morek54, 07 December 2012 - 11:52 PM.


#21 OFFLINE   morek54

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:02 AM

Oxford Dictionary:

 

Police, Policing - the civil force of a state, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order;

 

Social Work - work carried out by trained personnel with the aim of alleviating the conditions of those people in a community suffering from social deprivation;

 

Mental Health Professional is not defined in the dictionary but one would presume a trained person who cares for and treats people with mental illness.  (If only they realised this).

 

Nonetheless, all three on a basic level have distinctly differing roles - but the latter two seem to think their work also lies within the realm of the Police. 

 

Multi-agency working, as it is nicely dressed up in this modern age of fluffy catchphrases, shouldn't be about the Police picking up the slack left by the failings of other agencies, rather it should be about them doing their job so that we have a much smoother and more cohesive environment in which individual responsibilities are properly adopted.

 

 



#22 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

More54, I wouldnt agree that saying one of the roles of the police to facilitate protest is arrogance on the part of protesters. Eg evidence given by the Met describe their role as:

 

 

The role of the police

4. We heard evidence from the Metropolitan Police that it has in some respects changed its stance since the G20 protests so that it is now more facilitative of protest.[2] We welcome this renewed commitment to facilitating protest. We accept that policing public order is a very challenging task, and that in the current climate the police have to deal with various regulatory burdens with diminishing resources, and with the changing profile of protests detailed in the recent HMIC report,Policing Public Order published in February 2011. We note in particular the increasing unpredictability of protests which poses particular challenges for the police. We also note that the police's senior leaders welcome scrutiny, accepting that it inevitably produces recommendations which they see as their leadership responsibility to translate into practical guidance for frontline officers on the ground.

http://www.publicati...s/123/12304.htm

 

Also police have a legal duty to facilitate peaceful protest http://www.equalityh...protests-story/

 

I dont want to get too hung up on the protest thing but was just using it as an example of the wider role of the police beyond crime. 

 

Ammo with regard to the Mental Health issue I know I am banging my head against a brick wall on that one on here  :headbang:


Edited by meditate, 08 December 2012 - 11:22 PM.


#23 OFFLINE   morek54

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:59 AM

however you might choose to gloss over the reality of their role, the Police exist first and foremost not to faciliatate protest but rather to prevent crime and disorder. That someone has a right to protest [peacefully] under the Human Rights Act dictates that Police have to consider this in respect of their Policing of any such event - but their primary purpose is to maintain order. If this means a more concilliatory approach to how public order events are Policed, then so be it. But that should not be confused with the fundemental roles and responsibilities of the Police.

More54, I wouldnt agree that saying one of the roles of the police to facilitate protest is arrogance on the part of protesters. Eg evidence given by the Met describe their role as:

 

 

The role of the police

4. We heard evidence from the Metropolitan Police that it has in some respects changed its stance since the G20 protests so that it is now more facilitative of protest.[2] We welcome this renewed commitment to facilitating protest. We accept that policing public order is a very challenging task, and that in the current climate the police have to deal with various regulatory burdens with diminishing resources, and with the changing profile of protests detailed in the recent HMIC report,Policing Public Order published in February 2011. We note in particular the increasing unpredictability of protests which poses particular challenges for the police. We also note that the police's senior leaders welcome scrutiny, accepting that it inevitably produces recommendations which they see as their leadership responsibility to translate into practical guidance for frontline officers on the ground.

http://www.publicati...s/123/12304.htm

 

Also police have a legal duty to facilitate peaceful protest http://www.equalityh...protests-story/

 

I dont want to get too hung up on the protest thing but was just using it as an example of the wider role of the police beyond crime. 

 

Ammo with regard to the Mental Health issue I know I am banging my head against a brick wall on that one on here  :headbang:

However you might choose to gloss over the reality of what their role is, the Police exist first and foremost not to facilitate protest but rather to prevent crime and disorder. That someone has a right to protest [peacefully] under the Human Rights Act dictates that Police have to consider this in respect of their Policing of any such event.  Whilst this might manifest itself as a more conciliatory approach to Policing protest, it doesn't alter the roles and responsibilities of the Police where protest is concerned - that is to maintain order.  This should not be confused with considerations we have to adopt in how we might Police a particular event or a certain style of Policing we might adopt, whether short term or long term, in order to appease a vociferious minority. 



#24 OFFLINE   meditate

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

I am going to protest that facilitating peaceful protests becomes a core role of the police  :ph34r:



#25 OFFLINE   morek54

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

I am going to protest that facilitating peaceful protests becomes a core role of the police  :ph34r:

Well, a protest is only peaceful whilst ever it remains peaceful - and any gathering, where emotions are running high or there is a strong consensus of opinion, has the potential to descend into disorder.  Particularly one's which have a tendency to attract anarchist groups etc.

 

I would love to know what this term "facilitating peaceful protest" actually means though. What does this "core Policing role" actually look like?  It's just another play with words, which glosses over the stark realities of what Policing is actually about.  That said, I guess it panders to some degree or another to those who blame the Police every time an angry mob goes on the rampage at these so-called "peaceful protests".  The truth is, it's about the deflection of blame and a shift of responsibility - the bizarre notion that it's ok to smash up property or throw missiles at the Police because of so-called "kettling" or other public order tactics employed in Policing any large gathering where there is serious potential for disorder.

 

You might remember, the summer riots last year (as confined to Tottenham, in any case) followed a "peaceful gathering" outside of Tottenham Police station following the Police shooting of Mark Duggan. You might also remember the first of the student riots a few years back, which equally started out peacefully.  The Police, following the almighty furore over G20, adopted one of it's most low-key Policing operations ever for such an event - and look what happened there! 

 

A protest is therefore only peaceful so long as the dynamics of the crowd remains peaceful.  "Facilitating Protest" is just a fanciful expression which in layman's terms means the Policing of any protest should be dictated by the mood and behaviour of the crowd and the potential threat of disorder. 






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