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Great police lies.


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#21 morek54

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:02 AM

Oxford Dictionary:

 

Police, Policing - the civil force of a state, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order;

 

Social Work - work carried out by trained personnel with the aim of alleviating the conditions of those people in a community suffering from social deprivation;

 

Mental Health Professional is not defined in the dictionary but one would presume a trained person who cares for and treats people with mental illness.  (If only they realised this).

 

Nonetheless, all three on a basic level have distinctly differing roles - but the latter two seem to think their work also lies within the realm of the Police. 

 

Multi-agency working, as it is nicely dressed up in this modern age of fluffy catchphrases, shouldn't be about the Police picking up the slack left by the failings of other agencies, rather it should be about them doing their job so that we have a much smoother and more cohesive environment in which individual responsibilities are properly adopted.

 

 



#22 meditate

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

More54, I wouldnt agree that saying one of the roles of the police to facilitate protest is arrogance on the part of protesters. Eg evidence given by the Met describe their role as:

 

 

The role of the police

4. We heard evidence from the Metropolitan Police that it has in some respects changed its stance since the G20 protests so that it is now more facilitative of protest.[2] We welcome this renewed commitment to facilitating protest. We accept that policing public order is a very challenging task, and that in the current climate the police have to deal with various regulatory burdens with diminishing resources, and with the changing profile of protests detailed in the recent HMIC report,Policing Public Order published in February 2011. We note in particular the increasing unpredictability of protests which poses particular challenges for the police. We also note that the police's senior leaders welcome scrutiny, accepting that it inevitably produces recommendations which they see as their leadership responsibility to translate into practical guidance for frontline officers on the ground.

http://www.publicati...s/123/12304.htm

 

Also police have a legal duty to facilitate peaceful protest http://www.equalityh...protests-story/

 

I dont want to get too hung up on the protest thing but was just using it as an example of the wider role of the police beyond crime. 

 

Ammo with regard to the Mental Health issue I know I am banging my head against a brick wall on that one on here  :headbang:


Edited by meditate, 08 December 2012 - 11:22 PM.


#23 morek54

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:59 AM

however you might choose to gloss over the reality of their role, the Police exist first and foremost not to faciliatate protest but rather to prevent crime and disorder. That someone has a right to protest [peacefully] under the Human Rights Act dictates that Police have to consider this in respect of their Policing of any such event - but their primary purpose is to maintain order. If this means a more concilliatory approach to how public order events are Policed, then so be it. But that should not be confused with the fundemental roles and responsibilities of the Police.

More54, I wouldnt agree that saying one of the roles of the police to facilitate protest is arrogance on the part of protesters. Eg evidence given by the Met describe their role as:

 

 

The role of the police

4. We heard evidence from the Metropolitan Police that it has in some respects changed its stance since the G20 protests so that it is now more facilitative of protest.[2] We welcome this renewed commitment to facilitating protest. We accept that policing public order is a very challenging task, and that in the current climate the police have to deal with various regulatory burdens with diminishing resources, and with the changing profile of protests detailed in the recent HMIC report,Policing Public Order published in February 2011. We note in particular the increasing unpredictability of protests which poses particular challenges for the police. We also note that the police's senior leaders welcome scrutiny, accepting that it inevitably produces recommendations which they see as their leadership responsibility to translate into practical guidance for frontline officers on the ground.

http://www.publicati...s/123/12304.htm

 

Also police have a legal duty to facilitate peaceful protest http://www.equalityh...protests-story/

 

I dont want to get too hung up on the protest thing but was just using it as an example of the wider role of the police beyond crime. 

 

Ammo with regard to the Mental Health issue I know I am banging my head against a brick wall on that one on here  :headbang:

However you might choose to gloss over the reality of what their role is, the Police exist first and foremost not to facilitate protest but rather to prevent crime and disorder. That someone has a right to protest [peacefully] under the Human Rights Act dictates that Police have to consider this in respect of their Policing of any such event.  Whilst this might manifest itself as a more conciliatory approach to Policing protest, it doesn't alter the roles and responsibilities of the Police where protest is concerned - that is to maintain order.  This should not be confused with considerations we have to adopt in how we might Police a particular event or a certain style of Policing we might adopt, whether short term or long term, in order to appease a vociferious minority. 



#24 meditate

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

I am going to protest that facilitating peaceful protests becomes a core role of the police  :ph34r:



#25 morek54

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

I am going to protest that facilitating peaceful protests becomes a core role of the police  :ph34r:

Well, a protest is only peaceful whilst ever it remains peaceful - and any gathering, where emotions are running high or there is a strong consensus of opinion, has the potential to descend into disorder.  Particularly one's which have a tendency to attract anarchist groups etc.

 

I would love to know what this term "facilitating peaceful protest" actually means though. What does this "core Policing role" actually look like?  It's just another play with words, which glosses over the stark realities of what Policing is actually about.  That said, I guess it panders to some degree or another to those who blame the Police every time an angry mob goes on the rampage at these so-called "peaceful protests".  The truth is, it's about the deflection of blame and a shift of responsibility - the bizarre notion that it's ok to smash up property or throw missiles at the Police because of so-called "kettling" or other public order tactics employed in Policing any large gathering where there is serious potential for disorder.

 

You might remember, the summer riots last year (as confined to Tottenham, in any case) followed a "peaceful gathering" outside of Tottenham Police station following the Police shooting of Mark Duggan. You might also remember the first of the student riots a few years back, which equally started out peacefully.  The Police, following the almighty furore over G20, adopted one of it's most low-key Policing operations ever for such an event - and look what happened there! 

 

A protest is therefore only peaceful so long as the dynamics of the crowd remains peaceful.  "Facilitating Protest" is just a fanciful expression which in layman's terms means the Policing of any protest should be dictated by the mood and behaviour of the crowd and the potential threat of disorder. 



#26 DoubleG

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

If its on fire, call trumpton. If it hurts call ambo. Anything else "call the police". It's what we do.

#27 meditate

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

More54 I believe you are looking at one extreme of the spectrum - let me guide you to the other end. If the police in this country did not facilitate protest then they would, in effect, be moving closer to becoming agents of the state. Protests are not always about smashing up property, throwing missiles etc. Would you rather that we lost the right to protest in this country? If not then it does need facilitation and that my friend is the role of the police.



#28 morek54

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:22 PM

More54 I believe you are looking at one extreme of the spectrum - let me guide you to the other end. If the police in this country did not facilitate protest then they would, in effect, be moving closer to becoming agents of the state. Protests are not always about smashing up property, throwing missiles etc. Would you rather that we lost the right to protest in this country? If not then it does need facilitation and that my friend is the role of the police.

 

I've only been doing this job nearly twenty years - and you're the first person to tell me that it's my role to "facilitate protest".  I've also looked for it in the sworn oath I took when attested in the Office of Constable - and it ain't there either. I think the problem is, you're getting too caught up on fanciful terminology used in material on the internet, on which you tend to base an awful lot of your arguments over direct personal experience or understanding of Policing.  I guess it's how you interpret "facilitate" alongside "Policing" and "protest" though.  I suppose in Policing terms, generally speaking, we do facilitate an awful lot of activity where large crowds are concerned, whether it's providing a Police presence at a pop concert, a football match or indeed a "peaceful" protest.  But when all is said and done, whenever an event is being Policed, the Police are there for the purpose of carrying out their fundamental core functions of protecting life and property and maintaining law and order.  First and foremost.  Way over and above everything else. Period.  Everything else is merely peripheral to that.  So whilst standing between the EDL and an opposing group who find their views wholly objectionable, we might be strictly facilitating the EDL's right to protest - but ultimately, we're there to stop both groups tearing each other to pieces.  That, my friend, is the role of the Police - and whatever waffle you choose to read and digest elsewhere on the internet, it always comes back to protecting life and property and the prevention of crime and disorder.  And that's been the case for over 180 years. Nothing more, nothing less. 



#29 meditate

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:36 AM

Thats fine. The waffle is not really from the internet (I assume that was meant to be a derogatory comment?) but from Govt, HMIC and others. Out of interest is everything the police do contained in the oath? No? thought not. This is not a big deal to me. All I am saying is that it a police role to facilitate protest. you seem to be in disagreement with this view as expressed in documents endorsed by Govt, ACPO, HMIC etc.

 

http://www.cityoflon...st-22112011.htm


Edited by meditate, 12 December 2012 - 08:52 AM.


#30 morek54

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:36 AM

Thats fine. The waffle is not really from the internet (I assume that was meant to be a derogatory comment?) but from Govt, HMIC and others. Out of interest is everything the police do contained in the oath? No? thought not. This is not a big deal to me. All I am saying is that it a police role to facilitate protest. you seem to be in disagreement with this view as expressed in documents endorsed by Govt, ACPO, HMIC etc.

I honestly don't think you appreciate the point I am making.  What does "facilitate protest" actually mean, within a Policing context?  I don't think you've explained that - you are merely quoting a term which is used in reference documents.  This has to be considered alongside the meaning of "Police", the actual job description as such, and more so the principals of Policing as laid down by Sir Robert Peel 180 years ago; and the oath we take.  Not in isolation.  Which you have chosen to do.  So what does it mean?  It's not a big deal to me either, but I feel it's important to correct someone if they're mistaken as to what the fundamental core functions of the Police are. As I say above, in essence we facilitate a wide range of activities - granted, that can include lawful protest - but the actual Policing of such an event is primarily first and foremost with the purpose of maintaining order etc.  So whilst allowing a contentious protest, albeit a lawful one, by the EDL (as an example) to go ahead might strictly speaking be facilitating that protest, such decisions are made on-high.  At a grass roots level, the lowly Coppers on the street fulfilling his/her duties is there primarily to fulfil their core functions.  And that's it.  In essence, if there is no threat of disorder etc. and the protest is otherwise lawful, then there is no need for the Police to intervene.  Is that "facilitating protest", then?  Surely that's not a role as such but a principal that we should apply to almost everything we deal with.  If you can't see where I'm coming from, then that is a matter for yourself.  I can't change that.  I mean, what should I know? I only fulfill the roles of a Police Officer daily.  Alas, you are placing undue emphasis on this term you have discovered on the internet.  ACPO, HMIC documents are littered with fluffy terminology.  But the bottom line is, the Police exist first and foremost for the reasons I have already given above.  Everything else is secondary.  What we do on a day to day basis and what we should be doing are two distinctly separate things.  A good deal of our time is wasted dealing with non-Police matters, or rather issues which should be dealt with by other agencies.  That point has been flogged to death on here.  That we do something, by default of the failure of other agencies, does not make it a core Police function.  That is the difference.  I know what I mean even if you can't quite grasp it. You perhaps need to ask yourself why the Police exist, though. 



#31 meditate

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:17 AM

Your interpretation fits with my understanding. All I would add is that 'facilitation' has been strengthened under ECHR law to turn it into a positive aspect so that policing of such events now have to take on board more fully the perspective of those protesting rather than be an obstacle. It is still not perfect but the law has strengthened this legal right. whether it is core or not does not really matter as it is clearly a matter for the police in how this is carried out. The fact you demarcate between command and those on the ground does not alter this interpretation.



#32 morek54

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:35 AM

Your interpretation fits with my understanding. All I would add is that 'facilitation' has been strengthened under ECHR law to turn it into a positive aspect so that policing of such events now have to take on board more fully the perspective of those protesting rather than be an obstacle. It is still not perfect but the law has strengthened this legal right. whether it is core or not does not really matter as it is clearly a matter for the police in how this is carried out. The fact you demarcate between command and those on the ground does not alter this interpretation.

I think we've reached a mutual understanding here - but the role of the Police shouldn't be confused with a particular style of Policing, which is adopted with ECHR considerations in mind.  At whatever point we start, it always without exception comes back to the protection of life and property and prevention of crime and disorder.  I think it'd be fair to say, we rarely ever see eye to eye on here - but that said, it's always good debating with you nonetheless.



#33 meditate

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:54 AM

Thanks More54 and I would add likewise - sometimes both interesting and frustrating in equal measure but rarely dull.






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