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A request for insight regarding S136 MHA


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#26 OFFLINE   Bynti

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:37 PM

I did try organising a joint training day between the police and MH teams but they weren't interested. I had hoped to start off with an average incident and work our way through every possible outcome from both sides. With the collated info I intended to create something that would fill the knowledge gap on both sides.

 

Now thats what I do call making a difference  !

Talk about a great opertunity missed, well maybe not because although there are a lot of cuts alround, changes are happening.

I am very interested in this idea of yours, and that is definitley a 'gap ' that needs filling.

Can I ask who you went to with your initial preposal  ? was it both sides for example, and what reasons where you given for the lack of interest.


Edited by angie101, 22 January 2013 - 09:45 PM.


#27 OFFLINE   Sectioned Detection

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

My division were quite accommodating (I can be very insistent) and the frontline MH staff were interested but the senior staff of the MH Trust couldn't see the point and felt everything was okay. They hadn't realised there were so many people going missing (databases weren't filled in if they were returned before the end of the shift) or how many times the agreed waiting time had been breached for 136 assessments (figures fiddled).

What was annoying is that even a few very simple changes would have saved us all a lot of time and effort but more importantly it would have been a better experience for the patients.

#28 OFFLINE   Bynti

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

My division were quite accommodating (I can be very insistent) and the frontline MH staff were interested but the senior staff of the MH Trust couldn't see the point and felt everything was okay. They hadn't realised there were so many people going missing (databases weren't filled in if they were returned before the end of the shift) or how many times the agreed waiting time had been breached for 136 assessments (figures fiddled).

What was annoying is that even a few very simple changes would have saved us all a lot of time and effort but more importantly it would have been a better experience for the patients.

 

Of course,  I can imagine   the better experience for patients  I mean.

 

Its early days yet but from what I understand our work has got quite positive support from the board of govenors,  as I said before  I'm forever hopeful.

You do sound like you have a keen genuine interest in bridging the gaps between both parties, and its good to know that your division are prepared to be accommodating,your insistence gets results  :))

 

I'll keep you posted with any of my own developments of course, its very helpful for me to have the feed back on the forum


Edited by angie101, 22 January 2013 - 10:57 PM.


#29 OFFLINE   popularfurball

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:46 AM

http://www.tryingmyp...ml?spref=tw&m=1

A blog I've come across and well worth a read IMHO - all of her blogs.

#30 OFFLINE   Bynti

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:53 PM

http://www.tryingmyp...ml?spref=tw&m=1

A blog I've come across and well worth a read IMHO - all of her blogs.

 

 

Hi popularfurball,

thanks for that...............makes for an  interesting read    :thumbsup:

 

Theres another good post.........'.The Man in The Arena'  (january 24th, 2013)  @mentalhealthcop

thanks again   :)


Edited by angie101, 28 January 2013 - 12:36 PM.


#31 OFFLINE   popularfurball

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:42 PM

MHC has "guest blogged" for her too on the subject.

Which concurs that when someone is at home, they have equivalent powers to officers - they can take people to a place of safety by mental capacity act if it is in the persons best interest.

I don't think you need to be a police officer or a paramedic though. Theoretically care staff can too as long as it is the least restrictive option used.

#32 OFFLINE   Bynti

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:24 PM

Thanks   popularfurball'

 

I just spent ages on a report that I wanted to put up but it looked really wierd when I posted it   :(

To feed up now................... put up tomorrow      :headbang:

 

 

Havent got a clue what I did wrong there were all these triangle thingys     


Edited by angie101, 28 January 2013 - 10:47 PM.


#33 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

other than the mental capacity act. Unless I'm missing something 



#34 OFFLINE   popularfurball

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:10 AM

other than the mental capacity act. Unless I'm missing something


Sorry is that in relation to my post? I think I'm mixssing something!!

#35 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:27 AM

I cant find the thing i was replying to now, maybe i am losing my mind a little



#36 OFFLINE   southglos

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:33 PM

anybody looking for information on s136 MHA should have a head thru mental health cops excellant blogs. He has covered the subject many times

 



#37 OFFLINE   southglos

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:43 PM

Interesting thst there is a suggestion that police do not need any more training . On this point I would agree with MHC and Nathan Constable blogs on this in that the police need more training. MH issues are complex and an increasing part of the workload and it is not just a simple case of assist or  detain and convey to the local mental health inpatient unit (thats if there is one of course) .  Recent media coverage of two cases has shown just how badly things can go wrong.  Added to this is the cutting of funding and reources to both police and Mental health services in dealing with mental health issues.



#38 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:12 PM

what extra training do we need to prevent what?



#39 OFFLINE   Bynti

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:00 PM

Interesting thst there is a suggestion that police do not need any more training . On this point I would agree with MHC and Nathan Constable blogs on this in that the police need more training. MH issues are complex and an increasing part of the workload and it is not just a simple case of assist or  detain and convey to the local mental health inpatient unit (thats if there is one of course) .  Recent media coverage of two cases has shown just how badly things can go wrong.  Added to this is the cutting of funding and reources to both police and Mental health services in dealing with mental health issues.

Hi Southglos,

 

yes MHC's blog is very infomative and has been a really useful tool over the last 3 months for me to use as both an educational resource and point of reference.

I'm clad to say that since I OP this thread that I have gained a much greater knowledge of the subject both from a   police and NHS aspect and of course people that have experienced being sectioned..

 

I would also like to say that much of the academic evidence does confirm that POs (in general), do have in the main (through their work experience ),

a proven track record of successful implimentation.

In fact there is evidence that supports a more positive feed back from service users with regard to the police as apposed to some NHS staff.


Edited by angie101, 17 March 2013 - 11:02 PM.


#40 OFFLINE   southglos

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:36 AM

what extra training do we need to prevent what?

start with sucide, and if the tabolids are to believed knife waving mad people of every street corner.  Seriously thou use of powers under MHA  eg when s136 can be used, issues relating to places of safety,how to treat people with MH issues, partnership working with AMHP, ambulance service etc, etc,  Nathan Constables blog at http://nathanconstable.wordpress.com/ see give me two days explains it much better than I can as does mental health cop. Sadly in these days of cut backs it is often the police having to deal with those falling between the cracks leading inadvertently to criminalisation of MH and whilst I respect the work the police do they are and should never be a replacement for the MHS.



#41 OFFLINE   southglos

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:37 AM

Hi Southglos,

 

yes MHC's blog is very infomative and has been a really useful tool over the last 3 months for me to use as both an educational resource and point of reference.

I'm clad to say that since I OP this thread that I have gained a much greater knowledge of the subject both from a   police and NHS aspect and of course people that have experienced being sectioned..

 

I would also like to say that much of the academic evidence does confirm that POs (in general), do have in the main (through their work experience ),

a proven track record of successful implimentation.

In fact there is evidence that supports a more positive feed back from service users with regard to the police as apposed to some NHS staff.

I would be intriged to hear more of your conclusions as what I have seen and read suggests that there is a lot of confusion on the implentation of the MH act leading to a patchy implimetation by both services.



#42 OFFLINE   SimonT

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:34 AM

I'm still unclear as to what extra police training is needed. The police take people to get mental health assistance every single day of the year.
Sometimes it doesnt work out great, but once you get past the media drooling over what happes it usually seems that the police did fine.

#43 OFFLINE   gripper

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:57 AM

Maybe we should teach the MH staff,how to lock doors. That would solve 50% of the problems.

#44 OFFLINE   Sub-seven

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:06 AM

In my area we have allocated a team whose primary role is to be in the area of our local shiny new hospital to deal with the absconder/misper reports that come in from the relevant ward once we have left people in their care.



#45 OFFLINE   gripper

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:17 AM

Maybe we could get their staff, to report a few burglaries for us!.

#46 OFFLINE   southglos

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:03 PM

I'm still unclear as to what extra police training is needed. The police take people to get mental health assistance every single day of the year.
Sometimes it doesnt work out great, but once you get past the media drooling over what happes it usually seems that the police did fine.

I agree that the police get involved in dealing with mental health assistance (?) every single day and that need to see past the media hype which is often ill informed ad damaging. 

 

BUT the polices role has become a lot more than just taking people to get MH assistance  (if available) and even doing so can be fraught with pitfalls.  

 

See multiple posts by MHC, Nathan Constable etc etc explaining this much better than I can (they are both serving officers) with MHC in particular being an expert in this role. With strigent cuts to an already creaking MHS the police have had to take on a much wider role in mental health issues. 

 

For instance their cells are often used all too frequently as places of safety under the MHA when the legislation says they should only ever be used as a place of last resort.  As well as leading to the crimilisation of MH patients which in itself is not appropriate it also ties up limited vavuable police resources.  Police Officers are not trained MH staff yet are being asked to be responsible for patients with complex mental health issues whilst in their custody without the knowledge or support to do so.

 

A very small example of the problem are the different methods of restraint and equipment needed to deal with patients self harming or being violent with mental health issues. Added to which police have little or no training for example in recognising clinically significant features in patients they have detained; yet failure to do so can have dire consequences.   I am not advocating police being trained to the level of MHS professionals AS THEY SHOULD NOT BE PUT IN THIS POSITION EXCEPT IN AN EMERGENCY.  Yet the police are being used more and more to plug gaps in the MHS.

 

The MHS needs a much better understanding of the MHA as well as the police! From AMHP to PTSO it is important each knows and understands how they fit into the system relating to mental health, who has the power to do what and who is appropraite to deal with a stituation.

 

In conclusion I am not denergrating the polices responce or behaviour merely supporting the point that they would be assisted in this enforced role by better training and support. On a final point please see http://nathanconstab...ve-me-two-days/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again I refer you to the excellant blog post by Nathan Constable called give me two days which can be found at http://nathanconstable.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/give-me-two-days/ 



#47 OFFLINE   Bynti

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:11 AM

I would be intriged to hear more of your conclusions as what I have seen and read suggests that there is a lot of confusion on the implentation of the MH act leading to a patchy implimetation by both services.

 

Hi,

I believe that this is the most recent review (2010) of s136 MHA.

It is an examination of numerable studies that have been carried out.

 

http://msl.rsmjourna...&source=mfr

 

(Journal of The British Academy of Forensic Sciences)   


Edited by Fedster, 26 March 2013 - 08:31 PM.
Link Corrected


#48 OFFLINE   popularfurball

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:22 PM

I cant find the thing i was replying to now, maybe i am losing my mind a little<br />

<br /><br />Sorry SimonT<br /><br />I have gone back to review this thread. My original post I would guess is the one which you are referring to - the one which is non sensical and not correct...<br /><br />What I should have said was, in a private property, ambulance have the same powers as police where mental health is concerned - the MCA as i dont think S136 applies?<br /><br />However, we are regularly called to assist with someone at home who is experiencing mental health illness - where I'm under the impression the amb could deal (ie. they are not knife wielding, violent etc). <br /><br />(This is not meant as an attack towards ambulance, I think it is a great service under significant strain - it is more directed at legislation difficulties).<br /><br />Sorry for confusion in my first post!




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