[presidentbush]

Ok,

So I had a interesting conversation today with a senior officer of my local force about who makes the best students/police officers between PCSO’s or people who have worked in different jobs outside the police.

As a student in waiting I felt PSCO’s would have an advantage over myself as they have had the experience of working alongside regular police officers, have a knowledge of laws & regulations and would of dealt with confrontation situations.

The officer I spoke to had a different take and felt PSCO’s generally wouldn’t be as good as they often think they know more than they do, so don’t tend to work as hard. Sometimes they have developed bad habits and that will be difficult to get out and often have a “chip on their shoulder”

I know everyone is different, so difficult to generalise, but it would be good to get other opinions.

Thanks

PGWB

[bulletproof]

I think the answer to the question is they both do, but it depends on the calibre of the person.

I know quite a few PCSO's who have failed the selecetion process because they took it for granted they'd get in, and I know a couple of arrogant ones who think if they want it they should be entitled to it, or they should at least get an easier ride.

It's the person that makes the Police Officer IMO, not what they have done prior to becoming one.

[Jims]

Having completing my initial training as a Police officer a few months back I will tell you my experiences. When I joined I was in a minority of students with no Police background, three quarters of my class had some kind of police experience. The majority of these students with police experience were ex-PCSOs, then were the Specials, Detention Officers and Police staff. During training there were some slight divisions in abilities between groups at the start, quite small looking back for example them knowing their way around police IT systems, airways ect. However as training went on it became apparent that it was more ability which aided officers. The group in my opinion which were best placed with ability to complete the initial training of a regular Police Constable were the ex-specials again these are just my observations. I dont know if it was the way they were trained as specials before starting regular training however they just seemed to fit in better with the programme. Knowing what I know now, I believe they knew what they were getting themselves into, call it a realistic expectation. Some, not all of the PCSOs on the other hand especially at the beginning of training seemed to have an unrealistic expectation and some thought that the role of police constable was going to be very similar to their roles as a PCSO. Again this is coming from a tiny number percentage of people when compared with nationwide recruiting so Iam sure this differs from class to class.

I know some may debate this however the two roles are completely different, In the 18 weeks of basic training PCSOs were not mentioned once on the curriculum, neither were the roles of specials or police staff. What was mentioned was what would be expected as a Police Constable and how to act as one whilst on active duty.

One of these qualities is not to act on just assumption.

To answer the question the people who make the best Police Officers are the people with the best attitudes. The ones who know how to treat people, the ones who are open and honest. The ones who respect the Office of Constable and understand the responsibility involved and how your role impacts upon people. You cant in my opinion be a good police officer just because you have experience of the police, its what you do with the experience you gain while becoming a police officer.

This post has been edited by Jims: 17 January 2010 - 09:56 PM

[ike-fungipoke]

presidentbush, on Jan 17 2010, 07:33 PM, said:

Ok,

So I had a interesting conversation today with a senior officer of my local force about who makes the best students/police officers between PCSO’s or people who have worked in different jobs outside the police.

As a student in waiting I felt PSCO’s would have an advantage over myself as they have had the experience of working alongside regular police officers,
have a knowledge of laws & regulations and would of dealt with confrontation situations.

The officer I spoke to had a different take and felt PSCO’s generally wouldn’t be as good as they often think they know more than they do, so don’t tend to work as hard. Sometimes they have developed bad habits and that will be difficult to get out and often have a “chip on their shoulder”

I know everyone is different, so difficult to generalise, but it would be good to get other opinions.

Thanks

PGWB

I would have to agree, and I think we have seen a little of that behaviour /attitude on here. You know what they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!!

[presidentbush]

ike-fungipoke, on Jan 18 2010, 12:24 AM, said:

I would have to agree, and I think we have seen a little of that behaviour /attitude on here. You know what they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!!

I think that was what my friend was getting at and felt it generally easier to train somone up who had no experience rather than somone who thought they had a decent knowledge of the law.

It was interesting to hear from Jims that the job of a pcso was never mentioned throughout the training and how different the roles seem to be.

I suppose overall it does come down to each individual person and how hard they are prepared to work.

[Trouble01]

I don't think it is that easy. There are plenty of people on the street who would make great police officers with no police experience whatsoever, afterall, who was applying for the job before PCSO's?

PCSO's can get a grasp of what a police officers world is like, but they still have alot to learn, as the two roles are completely different.

In short PCSO's may know the lingo, but that does not mean they will make good police officers, even I don't know how I will be, depending if I ever get the chance to do the job, that is....

[sykes]

Not sure if this is another attempt at slagging off PCSO's or not iwouldnt say PCSO often have a chip on their shoulder

the training regular officer receive is meant to take some one with no knowedge of police work into a competant officer, the abilites and capabilites of any officer are mainly down to that individual. their personal make up, life experiences etc.

you cannot make a sweeping judgement on a person or group of people just because of their previous employment

its always been thought that anyone who was competant and served as a special would have a initial advantage in training, basic knowledge of laws and procedures, used to the terminology and used to wearing the uniform and the reaction you get from the public, however everyone else soon caught up due to the way training is structured.

PCSO role was not around when i wnet to training school so cant comment from personal experience, i would imagine though it would be a similar situation initial advantage in settlling in soon leveled off.

[presidentbush]

[quote name='sykes' date='Jan 18 2010, 05:43 PM' post='426195']
Not sure if this is another attempt at slagging off PCSO's or not iwouldnt say PCSO often have a chip on their shoulder

Sykes,

As the original poster this was not an attempt to slag off pcso's. I actually stated that i felt that pcso's would have advantage, but was surprised by the comments of a friend who currently serves with D&C Police.

I think any negative things said by others were not a generalisation, but have maybe had situations when a pcso's has been a little cocky or arrogant. I'm sure there have been many other people who acted the same even though they had no police experience.

Most of us seem to agree that the best PC's are those who want it the most & work the hardest and overall previous experience doesnt make a great deal of difference.

PGWB

[Jaydee]

As a serving PCSO who works with PC's with both PCSO and non-PCSO backgrounds I can safely say it makes little difference. Yes being a PCSO makes for a good grounding but that is only due to you getting to see what PC's do and getting some insight into the job but it doesn't make you better when it comes to doing the job. Yes it is going to help to some degree as you have experience of dealing with people in policing situations such as stop and account and other things like that but I disagree that being a PCSO you will become automatically complacent about the role etc, PCSO's here know that our job is different and I am yet to meet one who says they will make a good PC simply because they are a PCSO.

My application to be a PC is going in tomorrow and I am under no illusion that my current job will make it any easier as the application procedure requires zero policing experience and if anything I will be working harder to curb my knowledge of policing if I make it to the assessment centre or it will threaten to fail me! My grasp of the law etc is better than a person with no policing background but it doesn't mean I wont listen during lessons that I believe I already have knowledge of, if anything I will work harder to improve on what I already know and try to increase my knowledge!

So no being a PCSO gives little advantage in the sense of training because as with PCSO training I know for a fact that everybody will be trained at the same level and will advance at the same speed and people with no policing background can become just as complacent as somebody with a policing background. But if anybody tries to compare who makes the better PC they are barking up the wrong tree as it all comes down to your ability to learn and deal with people and people in other jobs deal with people as much as a PCSO or a PC does and therefore may have excellent communication skills regardless of policing background.

[Trouble01]

As someone who has gone through the application process, I would say it makes absolutely no difference how you perform on the day, to be honest I would say that alot of my evidence in relation to the competencies, only two of the examples I used came from my role as a PCSO.

I now have a start date for June, and I am under no illusion that some of the training I am going find just as difficult as someone who has come off the streets.

I also have no idea how I will perform as a Police Officer, but hope I will make a good one, the dedication and determination is definitely there though.

[Tim in the South]

We all have a different range in skills, abilities, qualities.

To generalize whether a former PCSO makes a better PC is pointless.

During the training programme, the former PCSO will be able to help those without any experience in some areas - and also those without any policing experience may and will help the former PCSO in other ways.

What we have to do is to exploit our good qualities / skills, and work on those areas which are weaker. If we work as ONE team, that will be of benefit to all of us, and ultimately the community for which both PCSO and PC have pledged to work.

[james c]

Generalisations are ridiculous the good PC will have been the busiest PCSO most committed special etc just the same as the good PC will have been a hard worker elsewhere also.An idea of the systems is an initial advantage but people soon catch up with that.The police is such a broad church all types can and do get taken on it has to be that way to get the right mix of people.
In recent times I feel that we have moved away from the old definition of a constable that encompasses the community.
Alot more people are from what I would call a 'posh' background and dealing with our average client base is a major shock.This stems from the job wanting less complaints someone more well to do is less likely to tell someone what they really think.Another generalisation but it was based on my experiences of being a tutor 2000 -2005 and a probationer trainer 05-08 alot less diamonds in the rough came through towards the end.

The ideal background tended to be uni education, some experience in customer services then PCSO.
Being a special could be a double edged sword by stepping up to the plate wanting to be a police officer ( although of course its nothing like it most of the time i.e paperwork/computer work) and walk the walk as such some people would scupper their own chances of ever being a regular by being a tosser causing more problems than they solved.Or on the other hand the best ones have more or less been begged to be a regular due to creating a very positive reputation.

Going off topic a bit we had a bit of a purge and tried to rid ourselves of some of the uniform carrier specials.You think that the criminal fraternity can be evasive.The amount of chasing up we did was unbelieveable and then they wouldn't resign and promised to do some hours which never happened.Then we cold called them and the amount of houses they lived in that were police 'shrines' beggared belief.In the end it got left in the too difficult pile and the area lost out on keen specials due to the quota being full on paper......... I digress.............

Anyway also being accepted as a regular isn't a character changing event and there are plenty of unsuitable people in the job.It is possible to sneak under the wire and ###### your way in and its the a devils own job to get rid,so there are just as many lazy incompetents as anywhere else in the world of work.

Interesting thread!

[gripper]

James c, How very well put.

[Trouble01]

At the end of the day there are good and bad in every job, but being a PCSO only gives you a tiny bit of knowledge of what a Police officers job is really like. Speaking to a colleague the other day, who used to be a PCSO he said that for the first year of his probabion he spent alot of his time thinking he had made the wrong decision, after finally settling into the role he is now one of the most dedicated PC's I know, and I guarantee that if I see any officers on overtime one of them will be him.

Further to this, every officer I have spoken to who was a former PCSO said that I need to be prepared for a bit of a shock.

Just shows how little being a PCSO prepares you for the job.

Being in a classroom, yes I will have a bit more knowledge regarding some legislation, obviously I will have more experience using the radio, but that is a fraction of what a job involves.

I am really worried about making my first arrest, having to deal with a really confrontational situation, when it comes to situations like this I am in exactly the same position as anyone else.

[SAMMYW]

there's more than just radio etiquette.

You'll be clued up on your force's jargon, have good practices such as noticing street names as standard, being able to recognise a buck from 10 paces and if you Police the same area you supported.. you'll know the nominals, vulnerables and ratruns. You'll be a whizz at ironing your uniform efficiently (you know what I mean :thumbsup: ), confident in speaking with every type of person and appreciate that what they tell you in copschool is worth balls when you go out on area.

However, like someone said, it reallly all depends on the person. A slacker is a slacker no matter what job they do. Similarly don't fall into the over-confident trap. As a probie, you are still bottom of the food chain.

[Trouble01]

That's the thing though, being a SPCSO attached to a repsonse team, you realise how much difference there is between a PC and PCSO.
My team tend to shelter me from really major stuff as they are aware of my limitations as a PCSO.

Also, I have been advised that when I start my PC training not to go in there making a big issue out of the fact that I have been a PCSO for over six years(by the time I start training), they have advised me to go in there and act like everyone else, Obviously if the trainers ask me about what I have done in the past I will tell them, and if anyone asks for advice about the job I will offer help with the stuff I know, such as crime reports etc.

I have been given some very good advice by former PCSO's, and I am going to take their advice on board, afterall no one understands the transition more than them.

[bigyin74]

I would say anyone who has the following attributes:

Is thick skinned and is very calm, doesn't mind working nights and above all; a sense of humor.

[finbarfin]

Oh come on people...we all know that PCSOs are a complete and utter waste of time!! They are a cost effective measure by the government to cut down public spending, while at the same time being seen to actively promote the preventative presence of uniforms walking the beat. What can you lot actually do??? Nothing!!! Most regulars will say the same.

[SAMMYW]

finbarfin, on Jan 29 2010, 10:27 AM, said:

Oh come on people...we all know that PCSOs are a complete and utter waste of time!! They are a cost effective measure by the government to cut down public spending, while at the same time being seen to actively promote the preventative presence of uniforms walking the beat. What can you lot actually do??? Nothing!!! Most regulars will say the same.

I completely and utterly disagree :thumbsup: I appreciate PCSO's for the role they have been employed to do. If it weren't for ours, I'd be on every crime scene (pretty much every day), doing all the letter drops, reassurance visits, hi vis patrolling, asb callbacks, door checks, priority meetings, crime prevention stalls and the the other bits that they do whilst I can concentrate on locking people up and investigating my crimes.

Looking at your posts, it appears that you are a recruit awaiting a start date. Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, please keep an open mind until you work alongside your PCSO colleagues. :bye:

[Jaydee]

finbarfin, on Jan 29 2010, 10:27 AM, said:

Oh come on people...we all know that PCSOs are a complete and utter waste of time!! They are a cost effective measure by the government to cut down public spending, while at the same time being seen to actively promote the preventative presence of uniforms walking the beat. What can you lot actually do??? Nothing!!! Most regulars will say the same.

What do you actually know (or think you know) about PCSO's? I would say you know extremely little about what we do and if you walk into your station with that attitude don't expect to make any friends at least if WYP is anything to go by. So you are a recruit awaiting a start date? Come from a policing background? Worked alongside a PCSO? I think not!

Do me a favour mate and keep your ignorant and ill-informed comments to yourself....