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PintOfKittens

Confiscation

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This is purely hypothetical (No, it really is, it isnt a "my friend" story etc), basically a bouncer is claiming he has the right to confiscate id, on the basis of common law "prevent a crime" happenings...

A) Can a doorman/bouncer/whatever the PC term is confiscate a fake ID from a punter?

B) Can a doorman/etc confiscate a real valid id from a punter, thinking its fake?

C) If a doorman/bouncer/etc confistimicates my valid uk driving licence, can I use reasonable force to recover it?

Ta :)

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The any person power does not allow a doorman to prevent a crime about to happen. they can arrest for a crime in progress or one that has happened only.

It may be policy that the club reserves the right to confiscate what they think is fake ID. Was it taken whilst inside the club?? What they shoul have done is passed it to a bobby to deal with.

Depending whether the doorman had the right to take the fake ID, then you would not be able to use reasonable force to get it back. You would be guilty of assault.

If the Doorman was stood out in the street and took your fake licence, it could be classed as theft and so yes you could get it back off them.

So after all that...it depends on the circs

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You can use reasonable force to prevent a crime, and under common law you can confiscate an item to prevent a crime.

Presenting false ID is an offence under the ID cards act and it would be reasonable to confiscate it to prevent it being used to commit that offence again and to prevent them from buying alcohol. As long as it is handed to the police as soon as is reasonably practicable and the person it has been confiscated from is old this and invited to wait until the police turn up if they wish, there should not be a problem.

Lots of doorsupervisors do confiscate false ID and give it to the police and I've not heard of anyone being arrested for it.

Obviously if the ID turns out to be genuine then the doorsupervisor is going to be in trouble.

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Do you refer to the Identity cards Act 2006 , I thought this was only relevant to a national ID card not any form of ID

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when i was a doorsupervisor i used to confiscate fake ID everytime it was presented, as soon as we had a few we gave them to the next bobby to walk past, they never seemed to have a problem with it!! On the 'if it turns out to be real' front, its pretty obvious when someone tries to use a fake ID, theres only certain cards that can be used legally. (although we did have a bit of a mare when the new driving licences were introduced and none of us knew)

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Section 25 of the Identity Cards act 2006

25 Possession of false identity documents etc. (1) It is an offence for a person with the requisite intention to have in his possession or under his control—

(a) an identity document that is false and that he knows or believes to be false;

(b) an identity document that was improperly obtained and that he knows or believes to have been improperly obtained; or

© an identity document that relates to someone else.

(2) The requisite intention for the purposes of subsection (1) is—

(a) the intention of using the document for establishing registrable facts about himself; or

(b) the intention of allowing or inducing another to use it for establishing, ascertaining or verifying registrable facts about himself or about any other person (with the exception, in the case of a document within paragraph © of that subsection, of the individual to whom it relates).

(3) It is an offence for a person with the requisite intention to make, or to have in his possession or under his control—

(a) any apparatus which, to his knowledge, is or has been specially designed or adapted for the making of false identity documents; or

(b) any article or material which, to his knowledge, is or has been specially designed or adapted to be used in the making of false identity documents.

(4) The requisite intention for the purposes of subsection (3) is the intention—

(a) that he or another will make a false identity document; and

(b) that the document will be used by somebody for establishing, ascertaining or verifying registrable facts about a person.

(5) It is an offence for a person to have in his possession or under his control, without reasonable excuse—

(a) an identity document that is false;

(b) an identity document that was improperly obtained;

© an identity document that relates to someone else; or

(d) any apparatus, article or material which, to his knowledge, is or has been specially designed or adapted for the making of false identity documents or to be used in the making of such documents.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) or (3) shall be liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or to a fine, or to both.

(7) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (5) shall be liable—

(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine, or to both;

(b) on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both;

© on summary conviction in Scotland or Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both;

but, in relation to an offence committed before the commencement of section 154(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44), the reference in paragraph (b) to twelve months is to be read as a reference to six months.

(8 For the purposes of this section—

(a) an identity document is false only if it is false within the meaning of Part 1 of the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 (c. 45) (see section 9(1) of that Act); and

(b) an identity document was improperly obtained if false information was provided, in or in connection with the application for its issue or an application for its modification, to the person who issued it or (as the case may be) to a person entitled to modify it;

and references to the making of a false identity document include references to the modification of an identity document so that it becomes false.

(9) Subsection (8(a) does not apply in the application of this section to Scotland.

(10) In this section “identity document†has the meaning given by section 26.

26 Identity documents for the purposes of s. 25 (1) In section 25 “identity document†means any document that is, or purports to be—

(a) an ID card;

(b) a designated document;

© an immigration document;

(d) a United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77));

(e) a passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;

(f) a document that can be used (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;

(g) a UK driving licence; or

(h) a driving licence issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom

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You can use reasonable force to prevent a crime, and under common law you can confiscate an item to prevent a crime.

So I can confiscate the car of someone who drives drunk, or someones horse who does fox hunting, or someone's dog who lets it poo on the road? Are you SURE about that?

(Ok, not sure if the dog one is illegal or not, im just trying to make a point)

Section 11 of the same act:

(3) A person who is knowingly in possession of an ID card without either—

(a) the lawful authority of the individual to whom it was issued, or

(b) the permission of the Secretary of State,

must surrender the card as soon as it is practicable to do so.

(4) Where it appears to the Secretary of State that a person is in possession of—

(a) an ID card issued to another,

(b) an ID card that has expired or been cancelled or is otherwise invalid,

© an ID card that has not yet been cancelled but is of a description of cards that the Secretary of State has decided should be re-issued, or

(d) an ID card that is in that person’s possession in consequence of a contravention of a relevant requirement,

the Secretary of State may require that person to surrender the card within such period as he may specify.

(5) Where an ID card has to be surrendered under subsection (3) or (4), it must be surrendered—

(a) to the Secretary of State; or

(b) in the case of a card issued by a designated documents authority, either to the Secretary of State or to that authority.

The law says only the Secretary of State (which im guessing is extended to Police by authority blah blah the usual stuff) or the issuing authority (Passport office / DVLA) can only take the ID card...

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It would come under reasonable force sort of criteria. If you find someone drunk trying to drive out of the pub car park and persuade them to wind the window down then take their car keys and hand them to the police then that would be reasonable and proportional to the crime. Taking their car would not. Likewise a horse is very valuable but foxhunting is only a minor offence and actually quite hard to prove.

If someone attacked you with a knife and you managed to disarm them, you're not going to give the knife back to them are you?

A fake ID card is only ever likely to be used to commit an offence therefore your justification in taking it until it can be handed to the police is good. Remember that you are only taking it on a temporary basis to hand to the lawful authority (the police), you are not taking it into your permanent possession. The section you quote about the Secretary of State is about them taking the ID permanently.

Bear in mind that Doorsupervisors often confiscate drugs off people which are then handed to the police, although this is usually under a policy which has been agreed with the police.

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I've got to disagree.

Any person powers does NOT let a MOP prevent a crime.

Any person powers get thrown out of the window if there is a Bobby there to pass the hypothetical car keys to :)

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Not all ID cards are an ID card for the purposes of the ID card act 2006

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Criminal Law Act 1967

3. — (1) A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.

I'd say that is giving any person the lawful right to use reasonable force to prevent crime, and that last bit of training I got was from a police officer (although that wasn't about ID cards). I have know a situation where someone reported a theft of an item and when the person who took it was traced they said that they had confiscated it to prevent crime. It wasn't handed to the police at the earliest opportunity and wasn't handed back to its rightful owned by the police for some months.

Any person powers get thrown out of the window if there is a Bobby there to pass the hypothetical car keys to/

which is why I said

If you find someone drunk trying to drive out of the pub car park and persuade them to wind the window down then take their car keys and [bold]hand them to the police[/bold] then that would be reasonable and proportional to the crime.

Precisely what is covered by the ID card laws is a bit vague as one of the specified items under 10a says "ID Card" it does not say UK National ID Card". So if its a fake or altered UK driving licence then it is an offence under the ID cards Act, ifs its a "European Drivers Permit" which looks very like a UK licence, it's not (if you take the meaning of "ID Card" in section 10a to just mean a specific UK National ID card and not just any photo ID). If its a fake passport from Laos, its an offence. So its an odd law whereby a fake National Passport from any country in the World is an offence but something that tries to pass itself off as a valid driving licence for Europe is legal.

However, if they are trying to prove they are 18 to enter a licenced venue, then they are trying to commit an offence. OK you could argue that they might have only been intending to drink coke but then you can get into all sorts of complicated 'obtaining services by deception' etc. What is generally done is that doorsupervisors will hold onto it (bear in mind that it has just been handed to them) and say "I'm giving this to the police, would you like to wait until they turn up?" This usually has the effect of the person leaving.

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They have the same powers as any citizen- that of citizens arrest.

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